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  • 工作学习 / IT杂谈 / I failed two job candidates today -jabber(jabber); 2001-6-5 {740} (#91144@0)
    The first guy is Chinese. He holds a Ph. D in EE from a prestigeous American school. He has 6 years of programming experiences. I found he is not good at communicating and he lacks a big picture of Java technology.

    The second guy is Ukrainese. He has 20 years of IT experiences. He has been an architect for a long time. He was unhappy as I asked him some basic principles in J2ee. In such a case, I had to fail him----I suggested my CTO not consider him any more. It seems to him that an architect just need draw some use case diagrams and class diagrams. But it appears to me that a good architect must be able to code, though he does not need to know those specific details. This candidate has overestimated his own experiences.
    • You are real bull, NB, post your daily work report here, hehe... -bluespirt(聪聪); 2001-6-5 (#91179@0)
    • 同胞也给费了？没给多点机会么？ -guest:飞翔的鱼; 2001-6-5 (#91186@0)
    • 我看你的英文也就那么回事。不好意思，得罪了，我说实话。 -yixuan(依煊); 2001-6-5 (#91193@0)
      • 哈哈，同意！做到能废人的职位是挺值得自豪的，不过废人本身这件事真的没什么好说的，想想谁当初不是经过被人废这一步走过来的呢，那俩人一个学历那么高，一个经验那么多，心里定不好过 -guest:飞翔的鱼; 2001-6-5 (#91205@0)
        • 做到那职位又怎么样呢？ -yixuan(依煊); 2001-6-5 (#91232@0)
          • 我倒不觉得。我看jabber的本意是说大家要端正态度。如果都象第二个guy那样，到哪儿不都得被废？ -heater(肠子); 2001-6-5 (#91251@0)
            • 握手，jabber的本意明眼人一看便知，找工的人应该从中吸取教训。我很喜欢jabber的文章，倒是有些人不知什么心理作怪。 -guest:; 2001-6-5 (#91269@0)
              • 呵呵，有句老话：看不得穷人吃肉。:D -bingle(bingle); 2001-6-5 (#91275@0)
              • 没人说他的文章没用，他的态度，嘿嘿。。。。。 -guest:飞翔的鱼; 2001-6-5 (#91283@0)
              • You have understood me. I just want to explain two points... -jabber(jabber); 2001-6-6 {1121} (#91782@0)
                本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛1). The first candidate, our Chinese countrymen, Ph. D in EE, was not enthusiastic in job interviews. If one behaves him/herself this way, I don't think he/she can touch the employeer. Both the employeer and candidates are human beings, so please don't assume that others are stupid. Here are some good words: confident, humble, enthusiastic...

                2) The Ukraine candidate made a big mistake. He became impatient as I asked him some Java API things. He might thought I have looked down upon him. His behaviour proved he was not very professional, though he has 20 years of experiences. In a job interview, the candidate must take every question seriously. No matter how stupid the question is, you should not be impatient unless you don't want to get an offer. I have ever been asked such a question: " Do you feel comfortable at working on the Windows platform?" I felt inhumilated but I held my breath and answered this question using 2-3 three minutes. I got the offer at that time, though I did not accept it because of contract issue. If I could not control myself.... I would not get the offer.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                • Jabber did make the points. As a previous manager, unemployed now..:P, I would say attitude, personality, professionalism are much more important than your technical skill sets. -speed(如风); 2001-6-6 (#91794@0)
                • btw, r u involved in jabber IM? or u just love jabber IM? -speed(如风); 2001-6-6 (#91797@0)
                  • What does IM mean? -guest:; 2001-6-12 (#99131@0)
                • From the question you asked I know that you are not a guy from Computer Science. And you question does offend, especially those with 20 years experience. -guest:guest; 2001-6-6 {519} (#91882@0)
                  You should know coding is never a problem to a normal CS guy even he knows nothing about the programming language at the interview time. What important is the direction, a young guy can code, but he may overwhelm the whole project, while the 20 years guy can always make a correct decision.

                  I have a god-feeling that you are worse that that guy, but I don't take any responsibility for my words, who knows you may be better?

                  Remember, don't ask that stupid question if you don't let people feel you are stupid.
                  • Thank you for your comments. Presumably, you are very good.... -jabber(jabber); 2001-6-6 {929} (#91957@0)
                    Job interviews do not mean the interviewer is more skillful than the interviewees. The key point is: Who is the suitable candidate? If you think that 20 years of experiences equal to strong working ability, you may not be right. One of my friends work at a very discent software company, and he told me the following story.

                    They have one chief archiect and three senior architects. All of them have over 10 years of experiences. In their company, however, only one senior architect can make design decisions and evaluate technologies, and the other archiect are very good at creating power point slides. I have ever met 2-3 three good chief architects, and all of them are hands-on. 20 years of expereinces does not always mean being knowledgeable and strong skills.


                    Let me ask you a stupid question: How did you know that my questions are stupid? Are you sure you are a guru in the software industry?
                    • INTERVER有权力问任何问题，但不能保证这些问题都是合理和恰当的，不合格的INTERVER 和不合格的INTERVEE一样多，只是INTERVEE更处在被动的地位； 好的INTERVER绝不是发现 一个不合格的INTERVEE，而是发现一个潜在的合格的INTERVEE，这对两者都是很重要的。。 -fxid(枫下客); 2001-6-6 (#92020@0)
                      • You made the point. -jabber(jabber); 2001-6-6 (#92227@0)
                    • I think it can't be over-emphasized how important it is for an interviewee to have enthusiasm towards the position he is applying for.... -guest:Guest; 2001-6-6 {1055} (#92072@0)
                      本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛For most Chinese people, fom my experience, they lack enthusiasm and confidence in the interviews and this is the number one problem.... Many people complain that language barrier has stopped them from seizing the job opportunity but this is not necessarily true. From the emplopyee side, once they choose to interview you, they already think you have the qualification and technical skills for the position, so why would they spend time to talk to you?

                      They want to find if you are really interested in this position or just shopping around, they want to know your personality and see if it fits with their corporate culture. Therefore the interview is likely to focus more on the "software" side of your qualification - such as communication skills and teamwork, enthusiasm. Language is not a big issue as far as they understand what you say - People know that you are a new immigrant and English is your 2nd lanuage.

                      Be enthusiastic and confident in the interview will increase your chance of success. How? Be prepared - and that's the key.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                      • agree, in my interview 2y ago i showed both (really!) and i got the offer -guest:; 2001-6-6 {1207} (#92238@0)
                        本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛i think my langunage will not be a problem, technically the interviewer (OSU PhD) had discussed a variety of aspects with me on phone and he implied that my experience and background was strongly qualified.

                        interview was divided formally and semi-formally into 3 phases: in the industrial enviroment i showed a familarity with equipment/procedures and handling, also strategically asked a few concerned question;---showing confidence

                        in the office, i was more than willing to listen, yet express myself, in a how-do-you-do situation i was bu bei bu kang---confident yet humble

                        in the decisive interview with hiring manager among others, i presented my stuff, including plots, reports, thesis, able to kan kan er tan, while demonstrating concerns over and willingness to facing the chanllenges.
                        by that time we were all happy.

                        in the meal with general manager (in a Korean restaurant), I indicated my entusiasm over the position and the willingness to relocate, I even talked the house rent/purchasing.

                        retro-looking my interview, i agree that other than skill itself or communication, confidence and enthusiasm are equally significant---it is also my attitude toward my north american life.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                    • 1. Normally a CS guy can code, so don't question their capabilities on coding or sort of detail, even they don't yet know a specific language at interview time. -guest:guest; 2001-6-6 {330} (#92100@0)
                      I, however, don't mean you don't have to chose among CS guys, but the problem is don't ask this question, you are doubting their basic qualification. Do you think "1 plus 1 equals what" a question stupid enough to make a graduate fed up?

                      2. Yes, I have been a guru since many years ago right in that industry, but so what?
        • How high is your position? :-):-) -jabber(jabber); 2001-6-6 {331} (#91795@0)
          If you come to the area in which I live, you will have the following observation: A lot of fathers and mothers of dot.com companies are hunting for jobs. Some days ago, there were Presidents, CEOs, CIOs, CFOs, CTOs, VPs, directors, chief architects, team leaders, so what?
          Today, jabber has a pay check. How about tomorrow?
        • Jabber seems not a rational person. It's pretty dangerous to put such person in a kind of management position. The perfect engineer is only existing in his imagine. Think about Jabber himself, does he have 10 years programming experience? -guest:; 2001-6-6 (#92086@0)
      • Agree with you, I think his skill is even worse, kind of superficialness, Just think about it, he is not a master in MS technology(he mentoined this half a year ago),as a contractor, -uid(miracle); 2001-6-6 {401} (#92629@0)
        Agree with you, I think his skill is even worse, kind of superficialness, Just think about it, he is not a master in MS technology(he mentoined this half a year ago, he is not good at C++),as a contractor, I don't think he'll go into detail with different companies' Java, except sun's.
        Actually, sun's java is definitely not good in every aspect. So what kind of architecture can he show us?
    • If you don't mind, can you please tell us what kind of opening it is? -bingle(bingle); 2001-6-5 (#91194@0)
    • Hei, man, the EE PH.D you fail can find a job much better than you very qucikly, do you agree? I am strange that he go to find a job of Java programmer. -rumba(rumba); 2001-6-5 (#91215@0)
      • 哈哈哈哈~~~~爽！ -guest:飞翔的鱼; 2001-6-5 (#91217@0)
        • 做事有可为有不可为，申请职位一样，一个职位数十人中只能有一个人最合适，JABBER 将其中的不合适者及原因分析POST出来，对大家只有好处 -guest:; 2001-6-6 (#91552@0)
          • 我知错了 -guest:飞翔的鱼; 2001-6-6 (#91561@0)
    • Jabber，你能否多收集一些别人的废人和被废的经历，以食读者。 -heater(肠子); 2001-6-5 (#91274@0)
      • Don't .......以食读者! Horrible! -guest:guest; 2001-6-5 (#91278@0)
      • 按照作者名Jabber搜索，你会发现Jabber非常多的小文章，对于IT技术、IT找工作、英语学习非常有用。 -bingle(bingle); 2001-6-5 (#91285@0)
      • 违反职业道德。那些简历是应该存档或销毁的。 -rollor(Rollor); 2001-6-6 (#91737@0)
      • I have ever had a fiasco (a big failure, or a waterloo) two years ago... -jabber(jabber); 2001-6-6 {234} (#91789@0)
        At that time, I tried to penetrate into the software industry.. I was misled by a Chinese manager. I told him a lot of things about my history... This is not professional. From that on, I began to be more careful with my countrymen.
        • I don't understand what you want to say. -alice366(webgirl); 2001-6-6 (#91918@0)
        • I don't think you hold any hatred against out countrymen -youngmind(jordan); 2001-6-13 (#99369@0)
    • 职业技能与就业机会看来真不是线性函数啊。jabber是我在ROLIA上最敬佩的人士，他将他的经验及经历与我们分享，这真是令人敬佩，不是一些所谓网友所比的啊。 -huofu(huofu); 2001-6-5 (#91289@0)
      • 哈哈，jabber的pp上都是你的大手印了~~~ -guest:飞翔的鱼; 2001-6-5 (#91296@0)
      • 啪！啪！俺也来拍几下。将来Jabber废俺的时候，也好考虑考虑今天这几下。 -heater(肠子); 2001-6-6 (#91381@0)
      • 我也来给含冤受屈的jabber同志平反 -bubble(bubble); 2001-6-6 (#91399@0)
        • I'm VERY sorry. 误用“同志”，措辞不当。这回不小心拍到马腿上了，不好意思 -bubble(bubble); 2001-6-6 (#91405@0)
          • You have tapped on the horse heels....: Haha -jabber(jabber); 2001-6-6 (#91798@0)
    • Look,that' the reason those "real technology specialist" dare not post their articles.The post is misunderstood because of some readers' tough career.So Jabber is a brave man.Show my respect to him. -agirl(agirl); 2001-6-6 (#91468@0)
    • 真是大快人心。我一直以为坛子里的各位都是被废的主(包括我自己)，没想到也有废别人的主，太好了！看来华人在加混的还不错。 -pyramid(金字塔); 2001-6-6 (#91490@0)
      • 首先人家在美国，第二点是个女生。 -pangpang(babyface); 2001-6-6 (#91738@0)
    • You did well! Otherwise, he will waste time and be buried by sand in e-commerce. He should be scientist in Ball Lab or researcher in Nortel. or junior Architect in small Telecom company -guest:new immi; 2001-6-6 (#91506@0)
      • I completely understand your point. -jabber(jabber); 2001-6-6 {223} (#91802@0)
        Unfortunately, Bell Lab, Nortel, or IBM Canada do not need some many intelligent scientists. As a result, many big fish have to fit themselves in a small pool. Actually, all the people are equal before a job opportunites.
        • If I were boss, I couldn't hire him. That's overqualified. Match, please remember -guest:old Yimin; 2001-6-6 (#91821@0)
    • 阿毛阿狗，几乎所有找不到工作的人都 in e-coomerce field。 It is unblievable for a EE PhD to apply Java position. -guest:EE; 2001-6-6 (#91512@0)
      • It is not an anomaly for a Ph. D to be programmer. Some of them are good programmers, some are poor. Please do not evaluate people simply on the basis of their education, dipoma, degrees... -jabber(jabber); 2001-6-6 (#91804@0)
    • Common guys! Why not trying to learn something from it instead of being a sour grape...grow up and be mature. -dennis2(dennis2); 2001-6-6 (#91516@0)
    • 明摆是给各位提供interview的经验！而且是应前面帖子要求的！！！！ -guest:！！！！; 2001-6-6 (#91531@0)
    • PhD in EE from the States failed for Java programming?? It's good news. He shoudl find one position matched his major. -coolguy(coolguy); 2001-6-6 (#91799@0)
      • EE is no longer hot in USA. -jabber(jabber); 2001-6-6 (#91839@0)
        • Really? As far as I know, Lucent and Nortel, etc still hire hardware engineers in recent days. Honestly all of my classmates are not laid off once until right now. Even for all og my previous co-workers!! Get a life, man!! -coolguy(coolguy); 2001-6-6 (#91858@0)
          • How about firmware prospect? -guest:new immi; 2001-6-6 (#91866@0)
            • Firmware is good too! -coolguy(coolguy); 2001-6-6 {1126} (#91888@0)
              本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛One girl I met two monthly ago found
              the programmer job in wireless field. She just arrived in Canada
              for 5 months. However she imporved her English so much
              in such a short time. If your skill is really good, you should
              have no problem to find a job. Always remember, career is
              more important tham making a living!! Like jabbers, he is a
              PhD guy in physics, however his career is in E-Commerce.
              So sad!! After a few years, you will find job very boring if
              you don't like what you do.

              Keep your head up, believe in yourself!! You will
              find one job which you like to do in the rest of the life.

              IT changes quickly, however you will see there are still
              a lot of things unchanged at all. One story I can tell you
              how valuable the PhD is. In my previous company, our
              principle engineer is a guy from China but he is really
              excellent. First the company doesn't care or maybe suspect
              his ability a little. After a few years, all of us depend his
              suggestion for our design. We are a bunch of PhD, MS.

              I am a MS, but I always respect PhD guys. Overall, they are
              better than MS. It is simple like that.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
              • exactly! as long as I insist on for a while, finally I may come into a good field. so called Computer is flooding as EE said "阿毛阿狗，几乎所有找不到工作的人都 in e-coomerce field" -guest:new immi; 2001-6-6 (#91914@0)
        • Hahaha, jabber, you are really humor!!! I almost laugh to tear. -rumba(rumba); 2001-6-6 (#91976@0)
          • YOU GOT IT! -jabber(jabber); 2001-6-6 (#92254@0)
    • 不知道是我小心眼还是怎么（但是我自己不这么认为），读了jabber这篇文章，我也觉得他有点在摆。或许他用英语没有表达清楚，还是根本没有考虑别人的感受。 -yellow(yellow); 2001-6-6 (#92024@0)
      • I think I have conveyed my ideas clearly. :-)-:) -jabber(jabber); 2001-6-6 {181} (#92252@0)
        I just want to tell why those two candidates did not do well, from an interviewer's perspective. I want to give some counter examples, but poeple like you feeld offended... oops!
      • 不是你小心眼. 我觉得JABBER实际上是自视甚高的., 偶尔言语中就会给人一点"摆"的感觉. 很多出色的人都会有一点. 他们自己通常感觉不到. -winterblue(winterblue); 2001-6-6 (#92599@0)
    • ones have different styles and criteria while considering a candidate, but I don't agree with Jabber's "I suggested my CTO not consider him any more." I felt jabber might have allowed his personal feeling to influence his decision in this case. -ely(Ely); 2001-6-6 (#92042@0)
      • Miss Ely, I am scared by your criticisms. :-) :-) -jabber(jabber); 2001-6-6 (#92242@0)
        • Ah-eh, am I that scary? BTW, I found it is much more difficult driving on the road of IT than what I expected one year ago. It's so bumping and what is worse, I'm on the half way.. -ely(Ely); 2001-6-6 (#92430@0)
          • you'd better not to expect that a firendly interviwer will interview you.jabber is the one of them.behave confident and prepare carefully,ok? -youngmind(jordan); 2001-6-13 (#99377@0)
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