本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛The following are forwarded for is4u.net forum.
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*** 假的就是假的 -- 一点看法
by Marshal Deng, November 22, 2000 at 00:13:52
如果一个人有基础， 对自己的项目稍加加工， 并不是不可。 如果是入门级别，
谋求的是入门职位， 将自己稍微参加的项目列入， 并不是造假。可是现在象JABBER和
一些其他的人则完全是在造假。
当然现在IT是很热， 尤其是在美国。 一些人玩弄一些概念， 其实纯属骗钱。 有
大骗小骗， 比较下来， JABBER只是谋生， 属于小骗。
面试的人其实也有很大的关系， 一些人其实自己就不懂， 当然不能分辨真假。 我
自己是奉劝大家不要搞坏了风气， 使中国人成为过阶老鼠。 象现在印度人在美国
一样， 牛皮是能吹， 可是人却要怀疑， 就我工作过的公司， 都相信中国人多于
印度人(我在美国)。
其实大家也可以好好想想， IT也在这十年内变化了多少？ JAVA这种东西将来有有
多大的市场？ 在市场经济下， 没有真本事是不行的， 想想十年后吧！ 我毕业之
后， 工作了六年多， 对这一行也了解透了。
那些FAKE成功的， 是因为现在这行热呀！ 在美国， 如果没有身份问题， 只会PERL的
也能堂而皇之的号称自己是“ENTERPRISE SERVER PROGRAMMER”， 一些JAVA程序员
只会一个烂对话框， 也能拿到6位数的工资， 甚至更多， 但是他们是否真的想到，
他们找到了一条可以保障终身的饭碗呢？
我自己从来老实的写简历， 当然也从不担心会找不到工作。 我自己从事的通讯程
序， 这方面你想造假都不会造， 书店里就根本没有这方面的书。 我不用担心将来
会被淘汰， 因为这不是JAVA。我自己也拿着想当的工资(6位数)， 我也知道在这一
行中许多不如我的人那着是我的一倍(CONTRACTOR)， 可我并不觉得有什么， 因为
我知道我还年轻(可以说相当年轻)， 而且我所作的可以持续到十年后。
我的建议 -- 看好你的将来。 不要为了一下的问题而改行， 有些东西是一时热的。
我也希望每个中国人都能打好基础 -- 我曾经POST过这个问题而不是急躁。 做一
个正直的人。 我个人从未吃过苦头， 当然也不能明白许多人的被迫换行的辛酸。
我也遇见过一些在美国才换行的人， 那些人因为年记大了， 心态也不很正常。要
知道人的智力可能是相差很大的， 你也必须，至少为你自己的选择负责。在我的圈
子里， 我知道造假的并不多。 我也希望保持中国人的名声， 而不是相反。
写了这么多， 没有别的意思。 我几乎也不大在网上发表意见。
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** 再谈一个例子
by Marshal Deng, November 22, 2000 at 00:25:51
再谈一个例子
我曾经和一个俄国老头一天进一个公司。 两个月后， 这个老头被LAY OFF掉了。
这个老头说起来还是个博士呐， 喜欢聊天。 可怜的老头， 知道后马上就狂写EMAIL和
打电话，最后去了千里之外的一家公司， 自己得开车去。
老头是JAVA Programmer, 本来是只应该拿JABBER一样的工资的， 老头要了个将近
六位数， MANAGER看其老， 也准了。但是来了之后TELECOM的东西却根本不懂， 我
暗示要帮他他也不接受， 他的LEADER给了几个方向都不能完成， 结果就是这个样
子。
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** Marshal, thanks for your remidning. I am waiting for the day you envisioned
by Jabber, November 22, 2000 at 19:11:15
First of all, I show my respect for Marshal. I have ever seen his postings here and it seemed to me that he is a true programmer.
I am honored for being taken as a typical bad example. I am a consultant --- this means my clients can send me home whenever they don't need me, whenever they don't like me, or whenever they found out that I am not a qualified Java programmer. If I am asked what is my weakest point, I can tell that my C++ is not good enough. But I am sort of person who know how to cover my tails.
Tell the truth, I have no interest to be an employee (I mean a permanent job). I found it is great fun to be a contractor. Earn more and learn more. I never tell lies about my skills. For instance, once a client wants to have a guy to do Java2D and I declined.
If you assume I am just like a trainee from computer training centers in Toronto, you are probably wrong. I know that some training centers in Toronto are specialized in teaching people how to cope with interviews. For instance, some guys have never played Weblogic or Websphere but they dare to claim 6 months EJB experiences. Fortunately, I am not among them.
Actually, I have ever worked with 3 chief architects in three projects.
I am the target pursued by those agents. Agents don't care for my resume. They just want to get some people to meet the client's requirement, then get the money. In such a case, some people may not be so fortunate---- they have 10 or 20 years of iron-clad IT experiences, but their expertise is obsolete. For consultants, the most important thing is that you have true skills. Please don't think you are superior if you have a degree in CS or you have more than 10 years of experiences. Or don't look down upon those who are not so lucky to have gone through some regular school trainings.
I am also a Java instructor--- well, people may say I am teaching people how to cheat. One of my students have never been to college and he was a waiter as he knew me. But he has very strong logical thinking, very strong lab ability, and very good sense in programming. But he is now a very good Java programmer. One the other hand, I can gave a bad example: Another student of mine is graduate in CS from a University. But I dound he has absolutely no sense in programming.
By the way, more and more Chinese programmers are immigrating to Canada. I estimate 50% of them have problems in meet the job market's needs in Canada. Should we say don't come? should we say "you go to do generic labor because you are not a good programmer?" Should we advise all of them go to attend CS courses in York University? What is a programmer? from my perspective views, a programmer is just like a carpenter, or a plumber. If anybody thinks he is superier because he became a programmer earlier than others, he is. IT is a constantly changing field. Anybody can fall behind if he/she is not learning. At the same time, for those what are diligent and good at learning, for those who happen to choose a right direction, it is possible for them to get ahead and even surpass the veterans. For instance, if I am on Microsoft track, I would be learning .NET and C#.
To survive in IT field, one needs to work hard and learn persistently. One cannot consolidate his position by looking down upon peers, or by expecting his counterparts making stupid mistakes.
By the way, it is normal things for people to be fired by the boss.
Everybody have his skill set. So far, I have not yet be fired...People can get fired for many reasons. I have ever realeased a contract with a client because I could not tolerate the CTO of that company. Take that Russian programmer as an example. He may lack the background knowledge in Telecommunication because he is not a domain expert. This does not mean he is a poor programmer. If Marshal is asked to do a project related to biochemistry, he probably needs 1-2 hours to pick up.
Say again, I advocates decorating resume to some extent. If some guy have 5 years of C++ experiences and now he knows Java, he can sparse some C++ experiences over Java. This is survival skills. However, I don't agree pretending to be a programmer. For instance, some people have never read a CORBA book, or written a complete CORBA exercise, but they put CORBA in their resume. Finishing <> or passing Sun Programmer certificate for Java 2 platform does not mean a Java programmer.
I understand that people should be considerate of those who are not so lucky. I can still remember the situation when I messed up the toolbar in Visual Basic. I tried to seek help from professional programmers... some of them could not solve my problem, some of them are impatient in helping me out. After two years, two of them became my java students. I found their general skill set has not yet been improved but I tell myself I need to pay special attention to them.
I came to this site and post my stuff because I think my posting might help some novices and laymen. It seems to me I should confess I am wrong. I found this forum is a place for those descent programmers to show off and intimidate novices, laymen, and even peer programmers.
I have ever attended a high-energy conference. A very famous Noble Laureate was asked to make a summary talk. His words is: "You know everything I know, but I don't know anything you don't know". It seems that we lack such a cultural spirit.
This is my last posting in this forum (Remark: it's refering is4u.net. ) . I don't want to waste more time in disputing with people. Only those who laughes last can laugh best.
I hope all of the people in this forum happy.
Good luck.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** 假的就是假的 -- 一点看法
by Marshal Deng, November 22, 2000 at 00:13:52
如果一个人有基础， 对自己的项目稍加加工， 并不是不可。 如果是入门级别，
谋求的是入门职位， 将自己稍微参加的项目列入， 并不是造假。可是现在象JABBER和
一些其他的人则完全是在造假。
当然现在IT是很热， 尤其是在美国。 一些人玩弄一些概念， 其实纯属骗钱。 有
大骗小骗， 比较下来， JABBER只是谋生， 属于小骗。
面试的人其实也有很大的关系， 一些人其实自己就不懂， 当然不能分辨真假。 我
自己是奉劝大家不要搞坏了风气， 使中国人成为过阶老鼠。 象现在印度人在美国
一样， 牛皮是能吹， 可是人却要怀疑， 就我工作过的公司， 都相信中国人多于
印度人(我在美国)。
其实大家也可以好好想想， IT也在这十年内变化了多少？ JAVA这种东西将来有有
多大的市场？ 在市场经济下， 没有真本事是不行的， 想想十年后吧！ 我毕业之
后， 工作了六年多， 对这一行也了解透了。
那些FAKE成功的， 是因为现在这行热呀！ 在美国， 如果没有身份问题， 只会PERL的
也能堂而皇之的号称自己是“ENTERPRISE SERVER PROGRAMMER”， 一些JAVA程序员
只会一个烂对话框， 也能拿到6位数的工资， 甚至更多， 但是他们是否真的想到，
他们找到了一条可以保障终身的饭碗呢？
我自己从来老实的写简历， 当然也从不担心会找不到工作。 我自己从事的通讯程
序， 这方面你想造假都不会造， 书店里就根本没有这方面的书。 我不用担心将来
会被淘汰， 因为这不是JAVA。我自己也拿着想当的工资(6位数)， 我也知道在这一
行中许多不如我的人那着是我的一倍(CONTRACTOR)， 可我并不觉得有什么， 因为
我知道我还年轻(可以说相当年轻)， 而且我所作的可以持续到十年后。
我的建议 -- 看好你的将来。 不要为了一下的问题而改行， 有些东西是一时热的。
我也希望每个中国人都能打好基础 -- 我曾经POST过这个问题而不是急躁。 做一
个正直的人。 我个人从未吃过苦头， 当然也不能明白许多人的被迫换行的辛酸。
我也遇见过一些在美国才换行的人， 那些人因为年记大了， 心态也不很正常。要
知道人的智力可能是相差很大的， 你也必须，至少为你自己的选择负责。在我的圈
子里， 我知道造假的并不多。 我也希望保持中国人的名声， 而不是相反。
写了这么多， 没有别的意思。 我几乎也不大在网上发表意见。
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** 再谈一个例子
by Marshal Deng, November 22, 2000 at 00:25:51
再谈一个例子
我曾经和一个俄国老头一天进一个公司。 两个月后， 这个老头被LAY OFF掉了。
这个老头说起来还是个博士呐， 喜欢聊天。 可怜的老头， 知道后马上就狂写EMAIL和
打电话，最后去了千里之外的一家公司， 自己得开车去。
老头是JAVA Programmer, 本来是只应该拿JABBER一样的工资的， 老头要了个将近
六位数， MANAGER看其老， 也准了。但是来了之后TELECOM的东西却根本不懂， 我
暗示要帮他他也不接受， 他的LEADER给了几个方向都不能完成， 结果就是这个样
子。
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** Marshal, thanks for your remidning. I am waiting for the day you envisioned
by Jabber, November 22, 2000 at 19:11:15
First of all, I show my respect for Marshal. I have ever seen his postings here and it seemed to me that he is a true programmer.
I am honored for being taken as a typical bad example. I am a consultant --- this means my clients can send me home whenever they don't need me, whenever they don't like me, or whenever they found out that I am not a qualified Java programmer. If I am asked what is my weakest point, I can tell that my C++ is not good enough. But I am sort of person who know how to cover my tails.
Tell the truth, I have no interest to be an employee (I mean a permanent job). I found it is great fun to be a contractor. Earn more and learn more. I never tell lies about my skills. For instance, once a client wants to have a guy to do Java2D and I declined.
If you assume I am just like a trainee from computer training centers in Toronto, you are probably wrong. I know that some training centers in Toronto are specialized in teaching people how to cope with interviews. For instance, some guys have never played Weblogic or Websphere but they dare to claim 6 months EJB experiences. Fortunately, I am not among them.
Actually, I have ever worked with 3 chief architects in three projects.
I am the target pursued by those agents. Agents don't care for my resume. They just want to get some people to meet the client's requirement, then get the money. In such a case, some people may not be so fortunate---- they have 10 or 20 years of iron-clad IT experiences, but their expertise is obsolete. For consultants, the most important thing is that you have true skills. Please don't think you are superior if you have a degree in CS or you have more than 10 years of experiences. Or don't look down upon those who are not so lucky to have gone through some regular school trainings.
I am also a Java instructor--- well, people may say I am teaching people how to cheat. One of my students have never been to college and he was a waiter as he knew me. But he has very strong logical thinking, very strong lab ability, and very good sense in programming. But he is now a very good Java programmer. One the other hand, I can gave a bad example: Another student of mine is graduate in CS from a University. But I dound he has absolutely no sense in programming.
By the way, more and more Chinese programmers are immigrating to Canada. I estimate 50% of them have problems in meet the job market's needs in Canada. Should we say don't come? should we say "you go to do generic labor because you are not a good programmer?" Should we advise all of them go to attend CS courses in York University? What is a programmer? from my perspective views, a programmer is just like a carpenter, or a plumber. If anybody thinks he is superier because he became a programmer earlier than others, he is. IT is a constantly changing field. Anybody can fall behind if he/she is not learning. At the same time, for those what are diligent and good at learning, for those who happen to choose a right direction, it is possible for them to get ahead and even surpass the veterans. For instance, if I am on Microsoft track, I would be learning .NET and C#.
To survive in IT field, one needs to work hard and learn persistently. One cannot consolidate his position by looking down upon peers, or by expecting his counterparts making stupid mistakes.
By the way, it is normal things for people to be fired by the boss.
Everybody have his skill set. So far, I have not yet be fired...People can get fired for many reasons. I have ever realeased a contract with a client because I could not tolerate the CTO of that company. Take that Russian programmer as an example. He may lack the background knowledge in Telecommunication because he is not a domain expert. This does not mean he is a poor programmer. If Marshal is asked to do a project related to biochemistry, he probably needs 1-2 hours to pick up.
Say again, I advocates decorating resume to some extent. If some guy have 5 years of C++ experiences and now he knows Java, he can sparse some C++ experiences over Java. This is survival skills. However, I don't agree pretending to be a programmer. For instance, some people have never read a CORBA book, or written a complete CORBA exercise, but they put CORBA in their resume. Finishing <> or passing Sun Programmer certificate for Java 2 platform does not mean a Java programmer.
I understand that people should be considerate of those who are not so lucky. I can still remember the situation when I messed up the toolbar in Visual Basic. I tried to seek help from professional programmers... some of them could not solve my problem, some of them are impatient in helping me out. After two years, two of them became my java students. I found their general skill set has not yet been improved but I tell myself I need to pay special attention to them.
I came to this site and post my stuff because I think my posting might help some novices and laymen. It seems to me I should confess I am wrong. I found this forum is a place for those descent programmers to show off and intimidate novices, laymen, and even peer programmers.
I have ever attended a high-energy conference. A very famous Noble Laureate was asked to make a summary talk. His words is: "You know everything I know, but I don't know anything you don't know". It seems that we lack such a cultural spirit.
This is my last posting in this forum (Remark: it's refering is4u.net. ) . I don't want to waste more time in disputing with people. Only those who laughes last can laugh best.
I hope all of the people in this forum happy.
Good luck.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net