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diao_david (David Diao)
本文发表在 rolia.net/zh 相约加拿大网上社区枫下论坛
From: LEMMA11 To: ALL

I read a very disturbing article yesterday in a newspaper. I am sure some of you here probably read it too.
The headline reads something like this: ETS advices universities to examine Chinese applicants test scores. The article went on to say that test scores (GMAT, TOFEL, GRE, etc.) coming out of China are abnormally high. And it charged that test takers have advance copy of the solution.

This is very disturbing. But it gets worse, I have been told by my Chinese friends that it isn't uncommon for overseas applicants to write their own references. And some even invent their own diploma.

This is all very shocking to me. But if you think about it, it makes perfect sense. We have all read about how much illegal immigrants pay to get out of China. A place in a container costs over 50,000 US dollars. And that binds the illegal immigrant at least 10 years of service to the organization that smuggles him/her. A fake test score, references and diploma get the person here legitimately. The temptation is clearly there.

But I have also discovered a new recent trend. I have known people going back to China and coming back with GMAT scores in the mid 700. Maybe I should take a trip to China too, to improve my mind, so to speak.

All this is very unhealthy. China needs to crack down on the rampant cheating that's going on right now. It undermines the credibility of Chinese students and professionals overseas.
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From: PSY6 To: LEMMA11

I think you should state the specific newspaper you read it in
The date it was printed
and if possible the page number of the article
Your tone within that thread is downright racist...

I don't neccessarily deny that cheating exists in China but your address and tone is demeaning to the chinese people who have earned their scores and credential legitimately.
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From: LEMMA11 To: PSY6
I read it in a Chinese Newspaper. Yes and I can read Chinese...
Yesterday, or Saturday, front page headline. World Daily News or something. Unfortunately, there is no WWW link for that newspaper.
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From: Emily (PEZBABY) To: LEMMA11

You must tell the adcoms this information RIGHT NOW!! Be sure to use your real name.
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From: LEMMA11 To: PSY6

I disagree with you. I think your tactic is downright wrong. I said cheating undermines that credibility of Chinese people overseas. I said it must be stopped. You called me a racist for that and I think you owe me an appology.
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From: ANDRES1971 To: LEMMA11

Is this deja vu? I believe I read this same posting over a month ago.
Knowing a little bit of the news industry, I doubt that they issue the same news again.

I think I will contact ETS directly, meanwhile, allow me to doubt about the whole story...

Andres.
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From: PSY6 To: LEMMA11

You made a interesting post in that above thread too..seems like you like to isolate chinese shortcomings..
Chinese newspaper..
thast fine.
Which one..i can read chinese too..and everyone that reads chinese newspapers know the entire names.

Americans do not say Wall Street somethng or New York something
neither do chinese say Sing Tao something or Ming Pao

So..unless you can specify I am not very keen on believeing you because your two only posts are quite derogatory towards the legitimacy and intelligence of chinese candidates
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From: LEMMA11 To: Emily (PEZBABY)

I don't need to tell AdComm.
AdComm know already. Don't be alarmed. This is in the News, remember? It was a advisory to all AdComm in this country. Don't kill the messenger, because you don't like the message. If you earned your score legit, you should be as pissed off as anyone else, emily.

I have already told you that this IS NOT news.

Many graduate schools in this country already do not accept ANY chinese student to their PhD program as a policy (see what I meant by undermining the credibility of Chinese people everywhere?). Because those unquailfied people drags down the professors they work for.

And I already told you that B-schools don't care as much about it... 1. They want to build up a network in China.
2. Quality of student is not important, as MBA students are not instrumental in the professors' research efforts.
3. Most of these Chinese students have good family connects and will be put into positions of importance once they graduate. So the return on investment, on the part of the B-school, is actually pretty good.

Don't be alarm Emily. And don't go calling people names just because they told the truth. The truth takes some time to sink in. The B-school Adcomm is blinded by their short term goals. Sooner or later, they will wake up.... But maybe you will have already graduated by then...
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From: Emily (PEZBABY) To: LEMMA11

I'm not pissed off or calling you names. You've shown you can't read two sentences. Can you read a whole article?
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From: LEMMA11 To: PSY6

Can you not read English?
I told you already, World Daily News.

And Yes, I am sure this came out a while back from other sources. I want the link.

Chinese newspaper, when routing and translating news from English sources, always take a little extra time...
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From: PSY6 To: LEMMA11

Yes..Emily is screwed now..
as a white girl in the US her credibility is seriously undermined by the discovery of fraudulent documents originating from applicants located in China.
Emily

Its lucky you got your apps in before this article..they might have rejected your app cuz they know you know me
I am chinese you know...i cheated...i went to china and when i went to order some food on the menu there was a section for exams..so i bought a GMAT with a side of LSAT.. thinking of getting an MCAT next time I go but i need to make my diploma first..in fact..i am waiting for that wax to harden now
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From: LEMMA11 To: Emily (PEZBABY)

I appologize, I mistook you for someone else.
Now that I know who I am talking to, I am sure you are pleased to know that AdComms already know. And I am sure you are even more pleased to know that they don't care. Their lust for that Chinese network has blinded them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PHINTHESKY To: ALL

I don't think the original thread posted is necessarily racist (and yes I am Asian/AMERICAN, so I should know, RIGHT?). Even though the author gives his/her slightly misinformed opinion by drawing a parallel to $50,000 container spaces, there is a problem with cheating in China and India. This is not to say that cheating does not exist in the States and this is not to say that ALL Chinese are cheaters. I personally believe the percentage is minute. However, it exists none the less. I hope that admissions committees do not automatically cast dispersion on Chinese applicants. I hope they do their homework and investigate ALL apps thoroughly. I am suprised no one has mentioned the allegation of Chinese faking TOEFL scores and having others write their essays. In the end, I think it will be readily apparent who does and who does not belong at top b-schools. If you show up for the first day of class and your colleague can't speak English, did he or she cheat to get in? Maybe, maybe not. But with all this said, let's put our faith in the admissions committee. THey without doubt have seens thousands of apps. I am sure they can recognize a BSer when they see one.
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From: LEMMA11 To: PSY6

Ridicule all you want.
You are only validating my point.

You are attacking me, and not the facts.

You know what that means.

The facts stand. You know it. So you attack the messenger.
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From: PSY6 To: LEMMA11

The facts stand?
That cheating exists?
The post above is a great post

Cheating exists everywhere..you know the word "politics"? it happens everywhere..we here the bad thing of everyone else except ourselves..

i am ridiculing you because your only posts exists to undermine the credibility of chinese ...

FACTS ARE FACTS RIGHT??
the other post you made mentions adcomm pple you know...you consider that unarguable? Without a doubt? No concern that you might be making up this little note.
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From: LEMMA11 To: PHINTHESKY

You are right. After a certain period of time, the Adcomm will actually do their duty. At this point, the MBA programs in America haven't done a thing to screen for cheaters yet. Why? It doesn't affect them.
I told you already their motivation. You can think about it, and then dismiss it. But that's my theory.
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From: MILOO1 To: LEMMA11

You said:
"And I already told you that B-schools don't care as much about it... 1. They want to build up a network in China.
2. Quality of student is not important, as MBA students are not instrumental in the professors' research efforts.
3. Most of these Chinese students have good family connects and will be put into positions of importance once they graduate. So the return on investment, on the part of the B-school, is actually pretty good."

My answers to the above 3 points:
1. WRONG!!! THEY CAN BUILD UP A NETWORK IN CHINA ONLY BY RECRUITING DISQUALIFIED CHINESE APPLICANTS?! DO YOU THINK B-SCHOOLS ARE DUMB?
2. WRONG!!! DISQUALIFIED PEOPLE WHO COULDN'T READ/SPEAK ENGLISH IN B-SCHOOL CAN SURVIVE THE STUDIES?!
3. WRONG!!! MOST QUALIFIED CHINESE APPLICANTS DO NOT HAVE GOOD FAMILY CONNECTS, AND THEY EARN THEIR CREDIT AND FUTURE BY THEIR WISDOM AND HARD-WORKING!!!
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From: JIN9118 To: LEMMA11

Lemma11:
Are you a Chinese or a Taiwanese? I wouldn't call you a racist if you are Chinese too. But if you are from Taiwan and feel shameful to be called a Chinese, then it's a different story.
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From: LEMMA11 To: ANDRES1971

Here is a man of action.
Please let us know what you found out from the ETS...
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From: TRISHHUANG To: LEMMA11

Perhaps there is some cheating going on, in fact there is probably some cheating going on. But is it of any magnitude to warrant your time. Just look at the number of Asians out there who are simply doing your drycleaning or serving you Kung Pao chicken and you should know that there are many Asians for whom carving out a living means sheer hard work.
If you want to solve the conspiracy theory that Asians and Adcom members have setup, you may require the help of your alta-ego, BrandoJay, the Senior Immigration Officer/GrandWizard of this forum, this way I am sure that you will have a nice Aryan class in whichever fourth-tier you finally manage to weasel into.
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From: HEDONGSHI To: ALL

I am a current MBA student from China and I have to say something here. Yes, there are frauds in MBA application in China, the same as in the US and anywhere else in the world. But please do not make any generalization in this regard. You will find yourself absolutely wrong!
As for GMAT score, remember there are 1.4 billion people in China. Only a few thousand(maye ten thousand) take GMAT and want to study MBA. Please calculate the percentage and tell us if those applicants are not the brightest and most hardworking among Chineses. GMAT is not the most important criterion in MBA application. What really counts is the overal quality of you not an test score. AND most important, Chinese applicants only compete against themselves, not with Americans, Canadians, Indians, and etc.
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From: LEMMA11 To: MILOO1

Ahh, I am sure you don't realize something about Third World Countries.
In 3rd world countries, conneciton is the most prized commodity, not intellect or leadership skills.

So who are these cheaters? Who are these people with the connections or the money to buy exams solutions - the powerful and the rich. Many of them are probably children of ranking officials.

And let me tell you why these high ranking officials need an MBA. They need it to justify their positions. You see the thing is the need to give the regular people in China an explaination of why their children are owners and managers of the Chinese (state and newly privatized) enterprises. An MBA from the USA is the perfect cover story.

And why would the US b-school look pass these obvious frauds? Return on investment, that's all it is, my friend. Many of these people are children of the powerful (some are not). When they graduate, they will be placed into positions of power by their connections. That's instant Chinese Network. Just like that. Call me jaded, but I believe this theory is as good as any.

Did you know that Slaon school of MIT has received over 7 million dollars last year from a Chinese company to promote Chinese participation in the B-school?

Stanford's B-school too received millions from China.
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From: LEMMA11 To: TRISHHUANG

Does the magnitude of the problem justify our time spent discussing it?
I think so.

And it seems to me that the editor of 'World Daily News' thought that it was worth a headline banner on the frontpage.

You should be alarmed, friend, because the ETS singaled out China and its advisory was a pretty sweeping 'generalization' (as you would call it).

And you should be alarmed because it does put Chinese people in a bad light.

You need to realize something here. Some Adcomm are summarily rejecting ALL Chinese applicants, in non-MBA fields. Am I making this up? I assure you I am not. Do I harbor ill intent in bringing this up? I can promise you, most sincerely that, I am not. But I can say this with certainty, cheating (especially the kind of systemic cheating that is reported) hurts the credibility of Chinese people everywhere. It is the duty of every honest person (Chinese or otherwise) to work to expose it and therefore stop it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LEMMA11 To: HEDONGSHI

That is not true. Chinese applicants don't compete among themselves for seats. Remember, there are a fixed number of seats out there. For every seat given to someone (qualified or not) is one less for the rest - simple math.
Top MBA schools take over 40% foreign students these days. Chinese students take up (I don't know how many percent) but my estimate is about 10-15% of that 40%. Let me tell you that's a large number. So don't believe it for a moment that it doesn't affect the rest of the applicants.

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From: rosey007 To: ALL

hello to you all
i think you guys are missing the point:
cheating is everywhere, whether in china or anyplace else.
to all you righteous americans trashing the chineese applicants let me ask one Q: when writing your resumesand essays did u write the truth the wholr truth and nothing but the truth...
and if not is this any different than cheating on the gmat ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike (GMIKE2000) To: LEMMA11

I don't want to support the thesis that Chinese test-takers cheat. But would support the claim that Chinese test scores are abnormally high, as this coincides with my own observations at grad school.
I have met many Chinese PhD students with almost perfect (i.e. 100%ile) VERBAL scores on the GRE or GMAT. I would not dispute the fact that they also get near perfect scores on the math and analytical, but hey, 100%ile verbal? Come on! These guys do not speak very good English at all!! Seriously, heavy accent (that is ok) and no grammar, no vocabulary, nothing (that is not ok).

This, however, does not mean that they cheat.

The reason, I think, is this: They study their BUTTS OFF in preparation for the tests. They probably learn all 10000 or so GRE words by heart.

When it comes to studying, these Chinese kids go f*cking crazy. They dont eat, dont sleep, dont breathe, everything is pushed back, because studying becomes the #1 priority.

Why? Because going to a school in the US is their one and only chance to get out of their own damn country.

Unfortunately, they sometimes push the bar a little too high for everyone else. Not much room for procrastinating cool kids like me =)
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From: HEDONGSHI To: LEMMA11

Believe me, there are quotas for major foreign countries like China and India. I am a graduate assistent in our MBA program office.
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From: HOTHOP To: ALL

My 'contribution' to this thread would be to dig into 'facts' and minimize the needless generalizatioin.
Fact: Students in the US are required to bring with them TWO photo IDs to the GMAT test centers. In addition, a digital photograph of each test-taker is taken and documented prior to the test.

Question: I would assume that this would be the procedure in other countries as well. Can someone confirm this?
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From: TRISHHUANG To: LEMMA11

Friend,
Any adcom for any program at any school that chooses to summarily deny admissions to all chinese applicants on the basis of any dubious accusation, has done me (and probably many other Chinese applicants) a valuable service. I have no desire to engage myself in a place that is not an open center of discourse and learning.

Schools are not doing me a favor by admitting me. We ARE complementing each other. I have qualities that schools seek as they have an environemt that complements those qualities. Rather than disturbing myself with this garbage, I will rather remain proud of the heritage of my people, the work that we do and focus on what I can do to make myself a better person. So please, do not try to tell me about my duty, I am 'living' that duty.
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From: LEMMA11 To: rosey007

This is funny. It really is. I like how many people run out to defend cheating. And they say cheating isn't rampant. See how many defenders charges of fraud draws?
They say cheating is everywhere %2
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2001-2-5 -05:00

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