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作者：南乡哥
标题：
挪亚一家皮肤肤色问题
主题：
进化与创造
最初发表地：
宗教论坛
关键词：
BoFangJi
体裁：
对话
请专业人士发言：皮肤肤色问题
送交者: 南乡哥 于 October 13, 1999 20:54:34:
挪亚一家的皮肤颜色到底是什么样的，我是不知道，圣经
没有明明地说。不过下面这位生物学博士的文章给了我一
些猜测，就是他们家至少有几位是中等肤色的。录出来跟
网上朋友分享，有专业知识的朋友更是请发表高见。请那
几位只会刷标语骂人、“你们我们”的先生们最好少说无
用的话，多说认真讨论、让读的人都有收益的话，如果不
能说，是不是考虑、、？
我不是专家，录完下文，基本就旁观了。
以下英文录自《What is creation Science?》１１２
到１１５页。作者是Gary E. Parker，是一位生物学博士，
最初是个进化论者，现在是神创论科学家的先锋部队之一。
I have been saying, perhaps too often, that the
weight of evidence points to "variation within
the created types." Do I really mean tht all the
tremendous variety we see today was built right
into the created types -- just a pair as a minimum
of most types and perhaps a dozen in one-celled
forms with multiple sexes? Could there be enough
variation in created human beings, for example,
to produce all the variation among human beings we
see today?
Answer:"Yes, indeed; no problem!"
I get some help here from an unexpected source, evolutionist
Fransisco Ayala (1978). He says that human beings are "heterozygous"
for 6.7% of their genes, on the average. That means that 6 or 7
times in a 100, the pair of genes for a given trait differ like
the genes for brown or blue eyes, or for rolling or not rolling
the tongue. Now this may not seem like much. But Ayala calculates a
single human couple with just "6.7% variety" could produce 10^^2017
children (mathematically, not physically!) before they would have to
produce an identical twin. That's 1 followed by 2017 zeros! The
number of atoms in the known universe is a mere 10^^80, nothing at
all compared with the variety that is present in just two human beings.
注意下面:
Take human skin color, for example. Note first of all
that all of us (except albinos) have exactly the same
skin coloring agent. It's a protein called melanin. We
all have the same basic skin color, just different amounts
of it. (Not a very big difference, is it?)
How long would it take to get all the variations in the
amount of skin color we see among people today?
Answer: one generation!
Let's see how that works. The amount of skin color we have
depends on at leat least two pairs of genes. Let's call
these genes A and B. People with the darkest skin color
have gene AABB as their genotype (set of genes for a trait);
those with very light skins have aabb. People with two "capital
letter" genes would be "medium-skinned," and those with 1
or 3 such genes would be a shade lighter or darker.
Now, let's start with two medium-skinned parents, AaBb. Fig.20
is a genetic square that shows the kind of children they could
have. Less than half (only 6 of the 16 combinations) would be
medium-skinned like their parents. Four each would be a shade
darker or lighter. ONe in 16 of the children of medium-skinned
parents (AaBb) would have the darkest possible skin color, while
the chances are also 1/16 that a brother or sister will have the
very lightest skin color (See Parker, Reynolds and Reynolds, 1977b).
Starting with medium-skinned parents (AaBb), how long would
it take to produce all the variation we see in human skin
color today? Merely on generation! In fact, this is the normal
situation in India today. Some Indians are as dark as the
darkest Africans, and some-perhaps a brother or sister in
the family -- as light as the lightest Europeans.
But now notice what happens if huamn groups were isolated
after creation. If those with very dark skins (AABB) migrate
into the same areas and/or marry only those with very dark
skins, then all their children will have very dark skins.
(AABB is the only possible combinations of AB egg and sperm
cells, which are the only types that can be produced by AABB
parents.) Similarly, parents with very light skins (aabb) can
have only very light-skinned children, since they donot have
any A or B genes to pass on. Even certain medium-skinned
parents (AAbb or aaBB) can get "locked-in" to having only
medium-skinned children (since they always pass on one
"capital" and one "lower case" gene).
Where people with different skin colors get together again
(as they do in the West Indies, for example), you find the
full range of varation again -- nothing less, but nothing more
either, that what you started with. Clearly, all this is variation
within type.
"Gene pool" refers to all the different genes that are present
in a population. There are at least four skin color genes in
the human gene pool: A, a, B, b. That total human gene pool for
skin color can be found in just one person with medium skin color
(AaBb), or it can be "spread around" among many people with
visibly different skin colors.
、、、、、、、
南乡楼下提出科学问题。刁叫瘦不好回避。（看里面）
送交者: 刁德一 于 October 14, 1999 11:49:03:
难怪这位生物学Parker博士跑去鼓吹神创了，他生物学压根儿就没学懂。
先看看他的高见。
>Let's see how that works. The amount of skin color we have
>depends on at leat least two pairs of genes. Let's call
>these genes A and B. People with the darkest skin color
>have gene AABB as their genotype (set of genes for a trait);
>those with very light skins have aabb. People with two "capital
>letter" genes would be "medium-skinned," and those with 1
>or 3 such genes would be a shade lighter or darker.
>Now, let's start with two medium-skinned parents, AaBb.
如果AABB基因型（ genotype）表现为黑肤色（或the darkest skin color），
为白肤色（或the lightest skin color），那麽AaBa就不是不太黑又不太白的
"medium-skinned".而是和AABB一样的黑肤色。遗传学上叫表现型（phenotype）。
至於AAbb,aaBB这两种基因型的表现型，要看这些基因到底是干什麽的。有一
点可以肯定，这两种基因型中的一种应该和AABB是同样的表现型。
学生物学的朋友们给裁判，看刁叫瘦是不也象南乡那样瞎掰?
这位Parker博士连基本的遗传学问题都搞错了，他的高论就不必评了。
这种半瓶子醋害人不浅。连南乡这位大博士都给他虎了，可见
有多少人被欺骗。只有基督教才出这种胡说八道的书。当然了，
也只有基督徒这样傻的人才去读和信这些拉圾。
刁叫瘦教南乡几个遗传学名词儿，以後别再受骗。基因型和表
现型上面说过了。有一种表现性状，要有那个或几个基因。但是，
有同样的表现型不表明有同样的基因型。控制某一性状的基因不
只一个，有两个。叫等位基因。一个是显性基因，另一个是隐
性基因。从字面上都看得出来，显性是老大哥，压倒隐性。所以
你长的样子多是显性基的杰作。这就是为什麽近亲婚姻会增加生
畸形儿的机会。就是两个隐性基因（e.g. aa)跑到一起.
回到正题--挪亚一家人的肤色。南乡掰道，挪亚一家是不太黑也
不太白的，象我们黄种人的肤色。按Parker博士的理论，那就是说挪亚
家有A,a,B,b。再按Parker博士的"一代就成"的结论。那挪亚家族就有些基因型，
珹AABB, AaBb, aaBB, AAbb, AABb, AaBB, aabb. 表现型有：黑
色（AABB, AaBb和aaBB,AAbb中的一种）。不黑也不白色
（基因型不确定。因为基因的作用不明），和白色（aabb和aaBB,AAbb中
的一种）。要想保住纯黑色或纯白色，这时就应象农业
学家育种一样，把不同的基因型分开，不让他们再杂交。挪亚老头
不可能根据表现型来分辩这些复杂的基因型。所以只有上帝来"育种"。
上帝把AABB放到非洲，祖祖辈辈没出来白脸。把放aabb到欧洲，几百代也没
生出黑皮。把黑脸儿的带不纯基因型的处理了。把黄脸不纯的基因型放到了亚洲。
这些亚洲的杂种繁殖的结果应是，黑人为多（约63%)，黄色次之（约15%)，
白人也有（约0.5%)。（无法精确计算，因为基因的作用不明）。就是说，
今天的中国（十亿人口）就应有6.3亿黑人，1.5亿黄人，0.5亿白人。
南乡博士，我这算术没错吧？可以想象，当年挪亚一家象联合国式的。
除了肤色，人种之间还有很多不同的特征。挪亚老头是大鼻子还是扁
鼻子？直头发还是圈头发？。。。
我亲爱的基督徒朋友，你们怎麽那麽愚蠢？？！！
老刁啊，可别忘了这网上还真有学生物的
送交者: 何必 于 October 14, 1999 14:45:51:
老刁能不能给大家讲讲什么叫双显性？记不记得遗传学上
的著名例子：一种花的等位基因红(相当于上例中的A)和白
(相当于上例中的a,虽然用小写字母表示也许不合适)共存
时(基因型是Aa)的表现型是粉？
浆糊老刁
送交者: 何必 于 October 14, 1999 16:32:07:
读老刁的帖前未读南乡的帖,只是顺手指出老刁的错误.
读完南乡的帖才发现老刁的脑袋整个就是一锅浆糊.
南乡明明讲的是数量性状的遗传,老刁却去扯甚显性
隐性去了。
何小弟是好学生
送交者: 刁德一 于 October 14, 1999 17:49:54:
黑，白，不太黑不太白是数量性状？没错。它们在基因的控制
下？也没错。这些等位基因有"显""隐"关系？当然了。数量性状
一般受多位点的等位基因控制？何小弟是好学生，我就不再罗
嗦遗传学的东西。
Parker博士的例子(A,a,B,b)是不是等位基因的关系？"显""隐"的
关系？两个位点(loci)的基因控制肤色（数量）性状。在这种情况下，
AaBb表现"中间性状"，还是表现显性性状（AABB)？
何小弟不是让我从遗传学的第一章开讲吧？
说你胖你就喘
送交者: 何必 于 October 15, 1999 12:42:50:
说你傻(浆糊)你就流哈喇子.
小刁是没有搞清，什么叫数量性状的遗传。
送交者: 明人 于 October 15, 1999 04:55:11:
回答: 浆糊老刁 由 何必 于 October 14, 1999 16:32:07:
小刁是没有搞清，什么叫数量性状的遗传。
作者先说：
We all have the same basic skin color, just different amounts of it. (Not a very big
difference, is it?)
作者还说，至少有两对（甚至以上），意义是什么？就是说，怕一对还不够区分
（好象一个BIT不够）。再问到时间更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
网络文帖
存档
作者：南乡哥
标题：
挪亚一家皮肤肤色问题
主题：
进化与创造
最初发表地：
宗教论坛
关键词：
BoFangJi
体裁：
对话
请专业人士发言：皮肤肤色问题
送交者: 南乡哥 于 October 13, 1999 20:54:34:
挪亚一家的皮肤颜色到底是什么样的，我是不知道，圣经
没有明明地说。不过下面这位生物学博士的文章给了我一
些猜测，就是他们家至少有几位是中等肤色的。录出来跟
网上朋友分享，有专业知识的朋友更是请发表高见。请那
几位只会刷标语骂人、“你们我们”的先生们最好少说无
用的话，多说认真讨论、让读的人都有收益的话，如果不
能说，是不是考虑、、？
我不是专家，录完下文，基本就旁观了。
以下英文录自《What is creation Science?》１１２
到１１５页。作者是Gary E. Parker，是一位生物学博士，
最初是个进化论者，现在是神创论科学家的先锋部队之一。
I have been saying, perhaps too often, that the
weight of evidence points to "variation within
the created types." Do I really mean tht all the
tremendous variety we see today was built right
into the created types -- just a pair as a minimum
of most types and perhaps a dozen in one-celled
forms with multiple sexes? Could there be enough
variation in created human beings, for example,
to produce all the variation among human beings we
see today?
Answer:"Yes, indeed; no problem!"
I get some help here from an unexpected source, evolutionist
Fransisco Ayala (1978). He says that human beings are "heterozygous"
for 6.7% of their genes, on the average. That means that 6 or 7
times in a 100, the pair of genes for a given trait differ like
the genes for brown or blue eyes, or for rolling or not rolling
the tongue. Now this may not seem like much. But Ayala calculates a
single human couple with just "6.7% variety" could produce 10^^2017
children (mathematically, not physically!) before they would have to
produce an identical twin. That's 1 followed by 2017 zeros! The
number of atoms in the known universe is a mere 10^^80, nothing at
all compared with the variety that is present in just two human beings.
注意下面:
Take human skin color, for example. Note first of all
that all of us (except albinos) have exactly the same
skin coloring agent. It's a protein called melanin. We
all have the same basic skin color, just different amounts
of it. (Not a very big difference, is it?)
How long would it take to get all the variations in the
amount of skin color we see among people today?
Answer: one generation!
Let's see how that works. The amount of skin color we have
depends on at leat least two pairs of genes. Let's call
these genes A and B. People with the darkest skin color
have gene AABB as their genotype (set of genes for a trait);
those with very light skins have aabb. People with two "capital
letter" genes would be "medium-skinned," and those with 1
or 3 such genes would be a shade lighter or darker.
Now, let's start with two medium-skinned parents, AaBb. Fig.20
is a genetic square that shows the kind of children they could
have. Less than half (only 6 of the 16 combinations) would be
medium-skinned like their parents. Four each would be a shade
darker or lighter. ONe in 16 of the children of medium-skinned
parents (AaBb) would have the darkest possible skin color, while
the chances are also 1/16 that a brother or sister will have the
very lightest skin color (See Parker, Reynolds and Reynolds, 1977b).
Starting with medium-skinned parents (AaBb), how long would
it take to produce all the variation we see in human skin
color today? Merely on generation! In fact, this is the normal
situation in India today. Some Indians are as dark as the
darkest Africans, and some-perhaps a brother or sister in
the family -- as light as the lightest Europeans.
But now notice what happens if huamn groups were isolated
after creation. If those with very dark skins (AABB) migrate
into the same areas and/or marry only those with very dark
skins, then all their children will have very dark skins.
(AABB is the only possible combinations of AB egg and sperm
cells, which are the only types that can be produced by AABB
parents.) Similarly, parents with very light skins (aabb) can
have only very light-skinned children, since they donot have
any A or B genes to pass on. Even certain medium-skinned
parents (AAbb or aaBB) can get "locked-in" to having only
medium-skinned children (since they always pass on one
"capital" and one "lower case" gene).
Where people with different skin colors get together again
(as they do in the West Indies, for example), you find the
full range of varation again -- nothing less, but nothing more
either, that what you started with. Clearly, all this is variation
within type.
"Gene pool" refers to all the different genes that are present
in a population. There are at least four skin color genes in
the human gene pool: A, a, B, b. That total human gene pool for
skin color can be found in just one person with medium skin color
(AaBb), or it can be "spread around" among many people with
visibly different skin colors.
、、、、、、、
南乡楼下提出科学问题。刁叫瘦不好回避。（看里面）
送交者: 刁德一 于 October 14, 1999 11:49:03:
难怪这位生物学Parker博士跑去鼓吹神创了，他生物学压根儿就没学懂。
先看看他的高见。
>Let's see how that works. The amount of skin color we have
>depends on at leat least two pairs of genes. Let's call
>these genes A and B. People with the darkest skin color
>have gene AABB as their genotype (set of genes for a trait);
>those with very light skins have aabb. People with two "capital
>letter" genes would be "medium-skinned," and those with 1
>or 3 such genes would be a shade lighter or darker.
>Now, let's start with two medium-skinned parents, AaBb.
如果AABB基因型（ genotype）表现为黑肤色（或the darkest skin color），
为白肤色（或the lightest skin color），那麽AaBa就不是不太黑又不太白的
"medium-skinned".而是和AABB一样的黑肤色。遗传学上叫表现型（phenotype）。
至於AAbb,aaBB这两种基因型的表现型，要看这些基因到底是干什麽的。有一
点可以肯定，这两种基因型中的一种应该和AABB是同样的表现型。
学生物学的朋友们给裁判，看刁叫瘦是不也象南乡那样瞎掰?
这位Parker博士连基本的遗传学问题都搞错了，他的高论就不必评了。
这种半瓶子醋害人不浅。连南乡这位大博士都给他虎了，可见
有多少人被欺骗。只有基督教才出这种胡说八道的书。当然了，
也只有基督徒这样傻的人才去读和信这些拉圾。
刁叫瘦教南乡几个遗传学名词儿，以後别再受骗。基因型和表
现型上面说过了。有一种表现性状，要有那个或几个基因。但是，
有同样的表现型不表明有同样的基因型。控制某一性状的基因不
只一个，有两个。叫等位基因。一个是显性基因，另一个是隐
性基因。从字面上都看得出来，显性是老大哥，压倒隐性。所以
你长的样子多是显性基的杰作。这就是为什麽近亲婚姻会增加生
畸形儿的机会。就是两个隐性基因（e.g. aa)跑到一起.
回到正题--挪亚一家人的肤色。南乡掰道，挪亚一家是不太黑也
不太白的，象我们黄种人的肤色。按Parker博士的理论，那就是说挪亚
家有A,a,B,b。再按Parker博士的"一代就成"的结论。那挪亚家族就有些基因型，
珹AABB, AaBb, aaBB, AAbb, AABb, AaBB, aabb. 表现型有：黑
色（AABB, AaBb和aaBB,AAbb中的一种）。不黑也不白色
（基因型不确定。因为基因的作用不明），和白色（aabb和aaBB,AAbb中
的一种）。要想保住纯黑色或纯白色，这时就应象农业
学家育种一样，把不同的基因型分开，不让他们再杂交。挪亚老头
不可能根据表现型来分辩这些复杂的基因型。所以只有上帝来"育种"。
上帝把AABB放到非洲，祖祖辈辈没出来白脸。把放aabb到欧洲，几百代也没
生出黑皮。把黑脸儿的带不纯基因型的处理了。把黄脸不纯的基因型放到了亚洲。
这些亚洲的杂种繁殖的结果应是，黑人为多（约63%)，黄色次之（约15%)，
白人也有（约0.5%)。（无法精确计算，因为基因的作用不明）。就是说，
今天的中国（十亿人口）就应有6.3亿黑人，1.5亿黄人，0.5亿白人。
南乡博士，我这算术没错吧？可以想象，当年挪亚一家象联合国式的。
除了肤色，人种之间还有很多不同的特征。挪亚老头是大鼻子还是扁
鼻子？直头发还是圈头发？。。。
我亲爱的基督徒朋友，你们怎麽那麽愚蠢？？！！
老刁啊，可别忘了这网上还真有学生物的
送交者: 何必 于 October 14, 1999 14:45:51:
老刁能不能给大家讲讲什么叫双显性？记不记得遗传学上
的著名例子：一种花的等位基因红(相当于上例中的A)和白
(相当于上例中的a,虽然用小写字母表示也许不合适)共存
时(基因型是Aa)的表现型是粉？
浆糊老刁
送交者: 何必 于 October 14, 1999 16:32:07:
读老刁的帖前未读南乡的帖,只是顺手指出老刁的错误.
读完南乡的帖才发现老刁的脑袋整个就是一锅浆糊.
南乡明明讲的是数量性状的遗传,老刁却去扯甚显性
隐性去了。
何小弟是好学生
送交者: 刁德一 于 October 14, 1999 17:49:54:
黑，白，不太黑不太白是数量性状？没错。它们在基因的控制
下？也没错。这些等位基因有"显""隐"关系？当然了。数量性状
一般受多位点的等位基因控制？何小弟是好学生，我就不再罗
嗦遗传学的东西。
Parker博士的例子(A,a,B,b)是不是等位基因的关系？"显""隐"的
关系？两个位点(loci)的基因控制肤色（数量）性状。在这种情况下，
AaBb表现"中间性状"，还是表现显性性状（AABB)？
何小弟不是让我从遗传学的第一章开讲吧？
说你胖你就喘
送交者: 何必 于 October 15, 1999 12:42:50:
说你傻(浆糊)你就流哈喇子.
小刁是没有搞清，什么叫数量性状的遗传。
送交者: 明人 于 October 15, 1999 04:55:11:
回答: 浆糊老刁 由 何必 于 October 14, 1999 16:32:07:
小刁是没有搞清，什么叫数量性状的遗传。
作者先说：
We all have the same basic skin color, just different amounts of it. (Not a very big
difference, is it?)
作者还说，至少有两对（甚至以上），意义是什么？就是说，怕一对还不够区分
（好象一个BIT不够）。再问到时间更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net