I would like to clarify one basic concept to save this meaningless debate between “science” and religion/belief. -nothanks(ciel) @枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum

枫下沙龙 / 谈天说地 / I would like to clarify one basic concept to save this meaningless debate between “science” and religion/belief. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 {1711} (#8021941@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛You don’t need to verify that FLG is not science. We already know that, thank you very much. Because it is a belief, not science.

Years ago, I witnessed this scene in Toronto Hospital for Sick Children. A mother was waiting outside a surgery room for her son, who was only one month old and had to go through a heart surgery because of a congenital heart defect. The mother was distraught, delirious. Several people around (including me) were so touched, and yet, no one knew what to do to calm her and give her strength. Right before the surgery started, the experienced surgeon came out and simply said, “I will do my best,” (this is science part) and went on to hold her hands, “now, let’s pray he will survive the surgery and you will watch him grow up...” (belief part) I was so touched by their prayers that I almost could feel the power from the surgeon and the strength he gave that woman.

Sometimes, do you need a belief? You tell me.

Human mind is far more complex for limited science. When you ridicule, abuse others who have beliefs or even spread hatred against them because of their beliefs, you can be wrong and you just yet to see your own absurdity.

To me, life is too sophisticated to be explained or helped only by science. Respect and understanding is what you need. Whatever you can use to reduce your stress, suffering and pain, use it. Doesn’t matter if it is science or not. Several IDs here may have a strong urge to prove FLG is a superstition or evil cult so that it would save them some trouble in justifying denouncing FLG, I think it is very pathetic that their science degrees (assuming they are well-educated) can only amount to this kind of usage.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

+1 -redjunk(rolia); 2013-1-26 (#8021946@0)
精华！ -hiyaqi(亚奇); 2013-1-26 (#8021948@0)
真是无法喜欢这样的话。 -c_w(.); 2013-1-26 (#8021986@0)

I am not here to be like by you. I am here to defend for those who have been systemically prejudiced, FLG specifically, if they are the ones at whom you want to throw your stones. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022011@0)

恩，你真是浪费我的时间。就这么着吧。 -c_w(.); 2013-1-26 (#8022017@0)

Then stop responding to my posts. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022021@0)

You really do not like to hear different opinions... -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8023462@0)

Do you understand English? -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8023486@0)

You know better of course. (#8023583@0) -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8023596@0)

You know better 人民日报、混球shi报。(#8023640@0) -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8023643@0)

谢谢不谢哥分享. 你的话让我想起了红宝书时代, 毛主席的教导能拯救一切. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-26 (#8021995@0)

Science Red Book? Everyone else who doesn't have one will be sent for re-education camps? -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022008@0)

那是你的梦呓吧? 从来没听说过, 也没见过. 我不信毛, 也不信任何宗教. 我只信只有自己才能拯救自己. 要么知老师怎么会七次被裁, 现在有无影无踪? -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-26 (#8022009@0)

I am not asking you to believe in anything. That is you own business. But when you abuse (verbally) others for their beliefs, that is something else. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022014@0)

不是 “abuse” them for their beliefs，是 for their misconducts。 -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-26 (#8022023@0)

I think Canadian judicial system is still functioning. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022025@0)

造谣污蔑自己的祖国和同胞，judicial system 不管。 -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-26 (#8022028@0)

How do you know? You said you didn't even read the Epoch. It is "their own government" that is persecuting them. It would be absurd to see them praising that government, right? -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022040@0)

美国女子打开万圣节饰品惊出一身冷汗 Page Link -firetrain(火车头); 2012.12.26 10:39 (#7971360@0) -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-26 (#8022144@0)

你想说啥？不信你就去问Julie Keith。除了人民日报你啥也不能信，活着憋屈不？ -firetrain(火车头); 2013-2-3 (#8037648@0)

大纪元网站就更容易了。比如“活摘器官”就在首页。这个是公认的谣言。 -minbin(光辉岁月); 2012.6.9 12:44 (#7579991@0) -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-26 (#8022148@0)

你说是公的就是公的？沾胸毛不是？我看象母认的。 -firetrain(火车头); 2013-2-3 (#8037653@0)

不要把共产党与祖国、同胞混为一谈，这种思维是典型的被邪教洗脑的结果。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-26 (#8022454@0)

Why don't you just report the case and put me in jail? I DON'T BELIEVE IN ANY KIND RELIGION, not at all and never. FLG is just a piece of crap to me. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-26 (#8022034@0)

刺哥愤了吧。不谢哥，火车头俺觉得都是好人，还有李美人。 -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-26 (#8022039@0)

他们是, FLG不是. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-26 (#8022054@0)

Then back to my question. When someone calls you "Chink", swallow it. I don't expect you to do anything. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022042@0)

Well it all depends on how you present yourself. No one ever has dared to do that to me. If they did I would just say F Y Y A H! -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-26 (#8022052@0)

"dare"? good word. They are not like you. Maybe they know how to respect and treat you as a human being no matter what. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022060@0)

If so why did they do it to you or your friends? I have never heard anyone said "Chink" in real life but why did you hear it? -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-26 (#8022064@0)

Depends on your exposure to the outside world. The word could be used on you on any excuses, like they think "you are piece of crap." -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022074@0)

It also depends on what who where and how you expose... -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-26 (#8022120@0)

It is you who should report the case because you and your teammates think FLG have "misconducts", do you understand English? -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-26 (#8022472@0)

除非你一直生活在山洞里才会从来没听说过，也没见过。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-26 (#8022449@0)

不谢哥传教用英文，有点欠考虑。 -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-26 (#8022013@0)

I am a non-believer. You still don't get the point. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022015@0)

non-believer 怎么会写这么多长帖子。 -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-26 (#8022020@0)

To tell you what is "equality". -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022024@0)

那你是太关心俺了。俺俩素不相识，这俺怎么能相信？只能解释为你 motivated by your own STRONG beliefs。 -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-26 (#8022032@0)

Again, I am not asking to believe in anything. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022047@0)

by the way，世上没有 equality。追求 equality，就是着相了，只会自己痛苦。 -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-26 (#8022100@0)

世上没有equality，那就永远当奴才吧。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-26 (#8022443@0)

你可以追求EQUITY，如果你自己觉得自己没有权利，而不是追求EQUALITY. -9604(眯眯眼); 2013-2-3 (#8037623@0)

我相信并追求EQUITY和EQUALITY，是楼上的不相信。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-2-3 (#8037714@0)

Very well said! -kakashi(kakashi); 2013-1-26 (#8022041@0)
单纯了。... -xz730000(笑一笑，十年少); 2013-1-26 (#8022046@0)
同意LZ讲的科学和宗教（信仰）在某种角度上说是两码事，但FLG之所以让那么多人厌恶不是因为它的宗教方面，而是打着宗教的幌子行政治目的，就像民主本来是好事，但被民运分子糟蹋了，让人生畏。 -402(WOW); 2013-1-26 (#8022059@0)

Oh, they are not "patriotic" ? -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022066@0)

Well, against anyone that has different views is not wise. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-26 (#8022069@0)

I don't know what you mean. You or me? Who against whom? -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022079@0)

wow 同学道出了广大国人的心声。俺劝你夜深人静的时候，扪心自问一下，你是不是着相了。 -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-26 (#8022083@0)

Well put...and neither will make China a better country...it is my stand... -whynot108(练修养的牛); 2013-1-26 (#8022081@0)
Cannot agree more. The only thing I’d change is “让人生畏”. It should be ”让人生厌” .Talking about beliefs, FLG should ask themselves why other religions such as Buddhism, Christianity and Islam are well accepted. -sun010812(ssaw); 2013-1-26 (#8022150@0)

“让人生恶”可能更贴切。 -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-26 (#8022161@0)
+1 -bigjoe(月明风清); 2013-1-26 (#8022407@0)

共产党用政治手段迫害法轮功，法轮功为什么不能用政治手段反迫害？难道只有奴颜婢膝、逆来顺受才不让人厌恶，才不让人生畏？这不过是可悲又可怜的奴才思维罢了。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-26 (#8022437@0)

因为他以前没见过别人反抗共产党, 因此很吃惊, 也很不高兴. 等平反然后谢主龙恩才符合一些人的心态. 否则不回如此. -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2013-1-26 (#8022779@0)

"打着宗教的幌子行政治目的", 根本原因在于中国大陆没有宗教自由. -zeh(sosleepy); 2013-1-26 (#8022784@0)

The example you gave showed the power of faith...Everyone has faith but not necessarily believe in religion...Hope you could tell the difference between faith and belief... -whynot108(练修养的牛); 2013-1-26 (#8022084@0)

No one here wants you or anyone else to have any faith, do you understand English? -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-26 (#8022424@0)

不知道谁指责FLG不科学了，我只知道人们指责的是FLG不像宗教。 -haploidus(今剩叹); 2013-1-26 (#8022086@0)

Does not matter what it is. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022090@0)

So what was your original post about? -whynot108(练修养的牛); 2013-1-26 (#8022094@0)

What do you say? -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8022101@0)

It is your stand "You don’t need to verify that FLG is not science. We already know that, thank you very much. Because it is a belief, not science. " -whynot108(练修养的牛); 2013-1-26 {131} (#8022111@0)
今剩叹's point was people did not question whether FLG is science but question legitimately whether FLG could count as a religion.

整天背人民日报，难道不知道人民日报污蔑法轮功是伪科学？还是又想狡辩？ -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-26 (#8022417@0)

按照那个国家的定义？天朝也只是说它是邪教，没有说不是宗教。。。 -baalinca(把您卡); 2013-1-26 (#8022147@0)

写得很好！一个人信仰什么是私人的事。只要不影响别人就随他去；如果影响了别人，就依法律纠正，但是他仍然有信仰的权利。 -baalinca(把您卡); 2013-1-26 (#8022134@0)
写得很好。但是人们讨厌法轮功主要是它的造谣污蔑，干扰他人的政治行为。比如活摘器官，否认天安门自焚之类。而且它的教义荒诞，信仰活着的教主，对教徒精神控制，对社会有极大危害。有识之士当然会反对。 -minbin(光辉岁月); 2013-1-26 (#8022165@0)

还是得先立法才行吧，规定什么是荒谬什么是不荒谬之类的。什么有识之士，又没有资格考试证书之类的，靠不住得很。 -baalinca(把您卡); 2013-1-26 (#8022350@0)
对你来说，不符合党的教义都是荒诞的，这才是最荒诞不羁的。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-26 (#8022400@0)
这＂有极大危害＂的东西，在北美怎么没人管管？这里没有＂有识之士＂，或者只有你有识，别人都无知？ -zeh(sosleepy); 2013-1-26 (#8022772@0)

没人管，就没有危害么？北美枪支泛滥，还不是没人管。而且小心不要随便代表＂别人＂哦。不是我一个反对法轮功的。 -minbin(光辉岁月); 2013-1-26 (#8023251@0)

教义荒诞(Judgmental)，信仰活着的教主(Dead one is ok?)，对教徒精神控制 (Apply to all religions)，对社会有极大危害 ( You use gun as an example, don't forget cars, drugs etc. and many other things also kill, then you fall into your own illogical spiral) -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-26 (#8023309@0)

your are so naive. If you are in university I strongly recommend you take some reasoning classes, or some science classes. Comparing guns with cars, or drugs? No thanks. -minbin(光辉岁月); 2013-1-27 (#8023351@0)

Are you kidding? You mean you took "reasoning" classes or "science" classes in 党校？ -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8023485@0)

妹妹对"党校, 人民日报, 混球shi报" 之类的真是烂熟于心啊, 天天曲不离口, 卷不离手, 佩服, 佩服. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8023583@0)

太婆如果不上党校，怎么可能把人民日报、混球shi报的句子背得那么顺溜？ -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8023640@0)

好了, 妹妹, 你开开心心慢慢玩儿, 只是别太累了啊. 要学学桌子妹妹, 要有张有弛，故不常矜庄，而时戏谑。周末刷网愉快. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8023645@0)

你都太婆了还装妹妹，以为脸上涂上一层粉就开心了？ -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8023669@0)

你真认为法轮功对北美社会有“极大危害“？“北美枪支泛滥，还不是没人管。“，真没有人管么？不是总统在推动立法想管么？只是不象国内那样，直接把人抓起来关个几年，就行了，辩论来辩论去，费那神！ -zeh(sosleepy); 2013-1-27 (#8023399@0)

同意你说的。我对flg的并没有直接的了解，更多的是道听途说，即使亲眼所见，也疏于表面。我对它的了解是基于这些见闻：法轮大法、练功，李宏志，自焚，有病不吃药，和政府抗争，多伦多pacificMall的横幅，退党人数，领事馆门前示威，大纪元，神韵。。。。 -jameschen6(梦想农庄-雨水多好); 2013-1-27 {664} (#8023386@0)
它们的真伪，我没有时间和精力去验证，只有凭信心去判断。

1。更多的是同情，原因很简单，它们再邪恶，也比gcd强百倍，它们有胆量和耐力和gcd抗争和施压，我们有多少人能做到？我佩服它们，也支持它们。
2。有人说它们反科学，我不知道。我只知道，我们把科学看的过于神圣，（科学是第一生产力？？？？），人和生活是很复杂的，科学不能涵盖所有方面。在禽流感的时候，我自己选择不打疫苗，我是不是反科学呢？能这样轻易下论断吗？
3。flg经常被人论断的还有一条，就是以宗教组织名义参与政治斗争。我要说的是政治是每个人和政治都可以参与的，政治权利是人的基本权利。我所在的宣道会，和其他很多教会组织，在同性恋合法化的问题上，给政府和国会写了很多信的，坚决反对这样的决定的。这有什么值得指责的吗？

ding -zeh(sosleepy); 2013-1-27 (#8023387@0)
从这个帖子可以看出一个诚实的基督徒的宽容、理性和正义感，这才是真正美好的心态，赞一个！ -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-2-3 (#8037555@0)

楼上和楼主说得好。FLG被共产党妖魔化和鄙视，民运也被丑化为“伪民运”，尽管这些组织都有各自缺点，他们的主张是代表人类进步的，如果没有这些组织的存在，没有国际正义的压力，许多反共爱国人士（如王丹，刘晓波）早就被封建党枪毙了。 -frank8s(frank); 2013-1-27 (#8023423@0)

You make me laugh and feel pity for you. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8023452@0)

更确切说，我支持他们反对封建专制的主张。 -frank8s(frank); 2013-1-27 (#8023454@0)

I value your right of freedom of speech but disregard your conclusion entirely. Go and learn something everyday and get a real life. Good luck. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8023458@0)

看来我老了，受过去共产党愚民教育太深，没有你们年轻人这样实际。 -frank8s(frank); 2013-1-27 (#8023471@0)

中共是资本主义专制，法轮功是封建独裁，民运象是1949年前的中共。。。you figure -whynot108(练修养的牛); 2013-1-27 (#8023475@0)

Tell us, what did you learn from 人民日报 to get a real life? -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8023480@0)

Is that something your read daily? No wonder you have such a high level of critical thinking. Good for you. You should keep doing it. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8023498@0)

It's something you read daily because you always repeat the sentences from 人民日报 so fluently. -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8023597@0)

妹妹, 屋外阳光明媚,一会儿和桌子妹妹一起去喝下午茶吧. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8023607@0)

太婆，口号喊累了就喝点姜汤，一会还要和队友一起表演二人转呢。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8023631@0)

高速出口经常有举一纸板，上面写着"The economy is bad, I can NOT get a job... Please HELP!" 我路过时摇下车窗，把几玫硬币放到他的杯里说声Take it easy!如果写"Chinese ... ...", 我也会摇下车窗，然后咳－，咔－，PU -retireasap(taxpayer); 2013-1-27 (#8023432@0)

I would do the same. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8023459@0)
最好也举个牌子，上面写着“无产阶级文化大革命就是好，就是好呀就是好！”那才滑稽。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8023477@0)

A true creature of the Cultural Revolution. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8023505@0)

So go and hold the same slogan “无产阶级文化大革命就是好，就是好呀就是好！”together with your teammate and shout the slogan loudly. -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8023586@0)

妹妹每天都还好吧? -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8023594@0)

去问你的teammate，好的话婆媳俩再来一段二人转。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8023622@0)

Peace of mind gives you a good start of day. You need to have good breakfast too. Fruits and protein are important to you as well... -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8023638@0)

All you need is something like 人民日报, 混球shi报 to give you peace of mind, nothing else. -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8023653@0)

I can't agree with you more! -banruo(ILOVEWIKI); 2013-1-27 (#8023580@0)
言之有物。不过无论你表达得多清楚，总会有人要胡搅的。随他们去吧。 -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-27 (#8024010@0)

不同意FLG的不见得就是胡搅吧? -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8024046@0)

楼主仅仅是表达信仰自由的精神，同时也表达了自己对科学和信仰这两个概念的理解。楼主从未要求任何人信什么。全文条理清晰，语气得当，老刺的英文应当不算差，不会读不懂吧。如果读懂了，还问这样的“问题”，不是胡搅又是什么？ -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-27 (#8024069@0)

谢谢酱油哥高看和提携刺儿. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 {39} (#8024135@0)
作者和读者心有灵犀一点通吧? 哈啊哈哈哈.

看见没有，这就是又一个胡搅蛮缠的例子。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8024290@0)

晚饭吃的不错吧? 悠着劲儿, 慢慢来. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8024320@0)

还记得吃晚饭？我以为你胡搅蛮缠起来已经是废寝忘食了。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8024535@0)

不同意FLG的当然不见得就是胡搅，但像你们这些心中只有仇恨的人的确都是在胡搅，因为从来就没有看见你们有一句像样的批驳，整天折腾来折腾去除了发泄仇恨还是发泄仇恨。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8024287@0)

妹妹, 气大伤身, 去美美容吧. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-27 (#8024329@0)

太婆，喝两口菊花茶，消消火气。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-27 (#8024530@0)

科学需要具备可证伪性，信仰不需要。如果一个人提出某种理论或观点，并且说这是科学，那么，这个人需要证明自己的观点，或者证明自己的观点具有可证伪性。 -hhyang(哈哈羊); 2013-2-3 {312} (#8037597@0)
如果一个人相信共产主义，并宣称共产主义一定会实现，那么，我尊重他，因为这是一种信仰。尽管我对共产主义的厌恶之情，如长江之水，滔滔不绝，奔流不息。

如果一个人认为共产主义一定会实现，并且说这是科学，那么，我只能说他在扯淡。

如果一个人以他的共产主义科学为依据，有组织地去共他人的财产，那么，我只能说他是在犯罪。

事实是，很多鼓噪用科学批判宗教的人不仅没一个懂宗教，也没一个懂科学，都是拉大旗作虎皮的小丑。 -hiyaqi(亚奇); 2013-2-4 (#8039242@0)

听起来很有道理，但是么，大家心里都有把称，什么是宗教什么是政治什么是手段，还有什么是愚弄。 -9604(眯眯眼); 2013-2-3 (#8037620@0)

宗教和政治并不矛盾，有宗教信仰的人从事政治活动即合理也合法，不一定是什么手段或愚弄。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-2-3 (#8037716@0)

I would like to clarify one basic concept to save this meaningless debate between “science” and religion/belief.

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